This is Episode 12 of the OpenVC Podcast. In this episode, Dan Bowyer, co-founder of Super Seed, shares how the UK’s largest AI and industrial automation seed fund deployed £50M+ to support emerging tech. He discusses building a venture fund, evaluating pitch decks, and navigating the challenges of being a VC.
Harrison Faull (04:03.589)
So Dan, welcome to the Open VC podcast, season one. It's an absolute pleasure to have you on today. How are doing? Fresh, very fresh. So I'd like to explore your career before you became this powerhouse in the venture capital scene here in London, because it's really colorful. I think your first job you ever had was modeling, which is straight after school.
Dan (04:09.319)
Season one, fresh, loving it, loving your work.
Harrison Faull (04:33.041)
You happen to get yourself quite a famous agent and what seems like I've done my research. Would you mind telling us who it was and the kind of things that you got up to at 16, 17 years old as a young model?
Dan (04:36.261)
Yes. How did you find out about that?
Yeah, I mean it's a funny thing. I fell into it at school and I was dating a girl whose sister was a photographer and...
got a phone call from models one saying would you come up and see us? I don't want to do that. That's not that's not me. That's not and then I'll never forget going home and seeing my mum that night and saying look had this phone call and she said just go for it then what's the worst that can happen? Just go for it. Just every opportunity that you get just say yes, just go for it. All right. Okay, fine. So I went up there and I saw them and Davina McCall. She's she's not in so much in the limelight anymore, but and she certainly wasn't then she was an unknown
modeling agent. Davina McCall was my agent and we just had a blast for a couple of years. I was still at school, I was 16, I was still at school, I like 15, it doesn't matter, I was young and I was just going into doing my A -levels.
GCSEs and A levels, I was modeling in the holidays and doing stuff and it was just an absolute blast. I got to travel the world, I got to meet super cool famous people. I was in the lift at Models One with Yasmin Labonne, who's Simon Labonne's wife from Duran Duran. If people want me to, I'm talking about the 80s now. It's pretty, people are going, what? Shut up, you old man. But she was this beautiful model with Models One.
And we went back to her house. She lived just off the King's Road. so those guys, she met, and when you're that young and meeting these super cool people that you've seen on TV and on top of the pops and read in the papers, it was, I mean, when you're that young and you're, earning, I was earning more money part -time than all my friends that had left school and worked full -time. And, and it was just lots of beautiful people. It was, lots of parties. We won't go into those.
Dan (06:45.691)
was lots of fun, was crazy times.
Harrison Faull (06:48.784)
I imagine it made it quite difficult to stay motivated at school if you're able to tap into that high socialite career.
Dan (06:54.493)
You're assuming Harrison, I had motivation in the first place and I love you for that. I am not academic at all. did the bare minimum to scrape through and to not get thrown out of school. had no interest at school. was always interested in any, I mean, I've got a bit of a flighty brain, so I was always interested in anything that wasn't sit down and study. And I wanted to just go and travel and experience and do, and I've always been good at fixing things. So my mum's friends would bring over their broke
Dan (07:24.599)
TVs or stereos or Hoovers and I was always good with fixing electronic things. I had this natural ability to fix things and build things so I was building bikes, motorbikes, cars. I've always been able to build and fix so that was my thing but academic I was absolutely useless.
Harrison Faull (07:47.035)
Yeah, doesn't, not everyone's wired the same way for that. And you're clearly very hyper intelligent in other ways because after your modeling career, you were then scouted to join a boy band, one of Simon Cowell's first boy bands.
Dan (07:58.79)
Yeah, I went for an audition. It was an audition for a pop video. So I went for an audition as part as modeling. And when you get a request audition, you go because if somebody asks you to go to something, there's a high chance of you getting a job. So I got this request audition for a pop video and I went there and
It was a bit like X Factor is today. You got this kind of panel of judges sat behind a desk in a dance studio. So you imagine a room that's about 20 meters by 10 meters with a trestle table at the front where the mirrors are in a dance studio. there was Simon Cowell was one of the judges. So he obviously really did look like X Factor. And there was a choreographer there called Floyd and another guy that I can't remember his name. There's another guy called Gary who then ended up becoming my
music manager, my band manager. So I got asked to this thing, but I can't sing or dance. I've gone because I've been asked to go and I go there and I'm useless and there's these back flips and amazing singers and I'm like, geez, this is really, this is the first audition I've ever been to, right? As in for a video for something, something kind of moving and big scale.
And I said to the guy, I look, I'm useless. Thank you so much for seeing me. It was a real pleasure. And then I bumped into the guy who became my manager, Gary, on Oxford street. So the following week I was walking down Oxford street, tying my shoe, I had bent down to tie my shoelaces, stood up and I physically bumped into this guy. I said, I'm so sorry. And it turned out to be this guy, Gary, who was the other guy, who was the fourth guy on the trestle tables. I went, it's Dan, isn't it? And I went, yeah.
he said, look, we really liked you. Why didn't you come for another audition? I said, audition for what? He said, well, we're putting a pop band together. And this was in the days when X Factor was behind the scenes. All the manufactured boy bands and pop bands were built behind the scenes. They weren't done in the public eye. was such a genius move of Simon Cowell to push it all into the public eye and then people won't hate it because the public's choosing it. So was such a genius move on his count because everyone started hating manufactured bands. And I said, sure. Okay. So I went back to the dance studio the next week and then I got a phone call
Dan (10:04.783)
call that night from Simon saying you're in the band. I went what band? What are we called? What do we sing? Who are the other guys? So it was a proper manufactured. It was Simon Cowell's first boy band and it was a proper manufactured cheeseball 90s awful thing but it was another opportunity and I'm 18 years old and what are you gonna do? He's like sure let's do it. So I did that for four years.
Harrison Faull (10:33.374)
Yeah, what a wonderful experience. you've traveled the world as a model and you've traveled the world now as a musician. I think as a model, you kind of get paid by the job though. So it's quite clear cut about your remuneration and it's quite quick to come through. Whereas when you're in a band, you have to deal with things like record labels and quite complex contracts. And perhaps they played into a bit of your naivety when you signed up to the band. Because when you tried to leave, there's quite an interesting...
Harrison Faull (11:03.323)
story behind how they weren't particularly nice to you.
Dan (11:06.973)
Well, I mean, if you're not writing the music as a performer, get whatever 1 % of the, of the income, you get nothing as the performer. You get lots. If you're the writer of the, of the music, I'm sure it's still the same. Obviously things would have changed. This is 30 years ago. That's a long time ago, but
I bet it's still the same where if you're just, you know, the shopfront, you get virtually nothing. If you write the music and you're publishing rights, then, and then there's, if you play on the tracks, there's merchandising, there's performing, there's writing, there's all kinds of aspects. And obviously the record labels that they used to then, I'm sure with streaming, it's shifted a bit, but they were the lion's share of the income. And when you sign up, yeah, they gave me a 10 grand signing fee.
just for signing a document. I remember, never forget, was in Barclay Square, the lawyer was called Alexis Groer, his name was, this tiny little Jewish guy who was like fierce, fierce, you know, imagine the archetype, Arya Gold, he was that guy, fuck you, he's like, argh.
So he sat down and said, what do I sign? he said, look Dan, you either sign this or you get out of my office. Don't waste my time because there's a hundred guys waiting to sign this behind you. And okay, sure. So I signed it. They gave me a check for 10 ,000 pounds. I met the guys all together for the first time at the lawyer's office. That's the other witness. We never met before. We didn't know what we were doing. didn't know who we were. So I met the original lineup of the band in the reception of the lawyer's office. I did, so I signed, gave me 10 grand. Then they gave me, I think it was at the time, was about 200 quid a week.
just pediums just to to you know pay the bills but then it was fine and I did it I did one album so we did one album we released four singles there was like a number of top 40 singles it did it was okay I think the top 10 album it did okay but I didn't like it I didn't like the music I'm not a natural performer I just didn't like anything about it and I realized and I was dating a
Dan (13:04.315)
girl who was also in a band and she was struggling and I stopped. We would talk about this stuff all the time. And after this one album, so we'd released, I think five singles we'd released. So it were about two years in now. Yeah, about two years in. I like, I can't do this anymore. I just can't look at myself in the mirror. I'm just such a fraud. I'm such a fake. I've got to leave. And we're starting to make money. We're starting to break Europe. We're starting to break the Far East. The money's starting to come in now. And it's like, I'm going to be platinum handcuffed. If I don't jump ship now.
I'm going to be platinum handcuffed to this forever. I kind of, even at a very young age, I was 20, 21, 22 by this point, I know that I'm going to be stuck and I had to leave. So I went and saw my manager and I got rinsed. mean, I had to give everything back, close down the bank accounts. I literally didn't have enough money to get a bus home, get a cab from, it was brutal, it was...
It just, had to, I had to get out. had to, I couldn't do it. There was this steep down in my gut feeling that I, this is not me. I can't do this. I know my friends are saying, but just enjoy yourself. know, what, what, what great thing traveling and money and then you're on TV is I can't, I just can't do it anymore. So that, yeah. So then I broke up with my girlfriend at the time. So she got the house, the car and everything. I didn't have a absolute penny and I moved back to my mom's house with
almost like two suitcases just full of clothes and a portable television. I had to start again and that was it. was a real one minute you're flying first class around the world and the next minute you can't get a bus in Croydon.
Harrison Faull (14:43.384)
Wow, that's hell of a roller coaster for someone who's only 21. But also, I think perhaps your life experience, having had a career with modeling already, gave you a wise head, such that you were in a place where you could see the future in some respects and know that it wasn't for you. And actually, even though it was scary to step away, you had enough confidence to know that that was the right move for you at the time. Whereas a lot of 21 year olds would probably feel quite trapped and powerless.
Dan (15:07.247)
Yeah, we all have gut feelings don't we? We all have these gut feelings. think everybody, you, anybody...
listening, everyone in the world has this kind of, they know the truth. We know our truth in our hearts, in our guts. might process in your head and go, I, the money or the prestige or the whatever, but you know, we know truth. You know your truth deep, deep, deep down. So I think it's, you have to, I would have probably done it differently, gone back as in I would have probably maybe stayed for a few more singles or made a bit more of a sideways exit or been a bit more measured about it.
Sometimes you just gotta go for it. yeah, I think it's really important to trust that, trust the essence of you and just trust yourself. So yeah, you have to do the right thing. You have to do the right thing because the truth will always come back and bite you on the ass.
Harrison Faull (16:02.648)
very true. It's very true. not being one to shy away from taking quite major risks, you end up getting your Microsoft and Windows, sorry, your Windows and Apple engineering certificates as a coder. How did that come about? How does someone who's been a musician, been a model, been in the creative space, end up getting interested in tech? You mentioned you're a bit of an engineer.
Dan (16:28.967)
Well, there's a bunch of segues which I won't go into because they're bit dull. But basically when I first left, I was working minimum wage in a restaurant. I had nothing. I didn't know which way was up. And also what I think people don't appreciate about when you're in the public eye and people are making judgments of you and you're being pulled from pillar to post. And when you're a very young person, you don't really know who you are or what you're all about or what your values stand for, but you kind of got the sense of them. So I was in, was like I'd been, you know, hit over the head with a
I just didn't know what to do. I had no money all of these things that I kind of taken for granted were just ripped away The relationship was dead that the career was gone. The money was gone Everything had gone and I'm back at my mom's I left time but 17. I'm back at my mom's I So it was a massive punch in the face and it was a it was a it was looking back it was very healthy and
a real learning, a massive learning experience because we only learn through hard times, you don't learn through good times. But it does, it, and it took a little while to reset. So for about six months to a year, like, don't even know who I am. don't know.
I for, don't know what I'm doing, I'm just lost in the wilderness. And it was a really, really hard time. I'm working minimum wage jobs just to help my mum with the mortgage, just so there's some money coming in. And then a friend asked me to help him build, he knew that I was good with my hands and techie, a bit of a geek, know, helped me build a learning center for an airline. So I'm sure, okay, I can do that. I didn't know how to do that, but sure I can do that.
And it was in that process of building networks and understanding computing. And this is like mid nineties. So it was just early, early days of the internet, although no one had an email address. No one was browsing the web or doing anything. And I thought I quite liked this. And it was at that point, I then worked with another friend and helped helped him do the same, helped him effectively build the technology in his business. had a 20, 30 strong internal comms business and this is freaking awesome. This technology thing is a thing. This is going to be a thing. Then
Dan (18:31.151)
there was later days, there was the dot com boom and bust and then software becomes a thing and then more people going online and obviously the mid 2000s social media. So I was kind of at the very early stages and I started installing networks and installing equipment because in those days it was the laptop or the desktop or the network or the server or the internet connection that was the important bit. Now you get these things for free, right? They give these things almost away. It's the things that you use that are important, the software that you use, but back then it was the thing, it was the tin, it was the network.
So that was my first ever business. it kind of went, technology is an amazing thing. Kind of went and got qualified as an engineer and understood how this technology thing worked. And then I moved on to the software side. So that was that transition piece, but it was all by fluke. was all somebody saying, come and do a thing. Sure, I'll come and do a thing.
Harrison Faull (19:20.197)
Wow. So yeah, it's using the opportunity and then also having the adaptability to learn on the go and actually get the knowledge.
Dan (19:28.305)
Yeah, just go for every opportunity. Give it a go. What's the worst? The worst case is that it doesn't work out and then you get on the next road. It doesn't work out. You get on the next road. You just gotta learn, try, look, see, just go for it.
Harrison Faull (19:41.732)
Did you become an angel whilst you were doing the IT contracting?
Dan (19:43.773)
Yes, well, I set up a business then. So then I set up a business that was doing what I was doing, which was installing networks and building computers and then teaching mainly mid -tier companies in London. That was our main client base. We had, I think about 600 customers by the time I left. It was about how to install and manage and apply these new technologies. So that was my first business. Then I set up another business, which was in the kind of the...
the war room social media world and then a video interviewing platform. So I did, I'm very good at nothing to something stuff. I'm not very good at functional businesses. like.
you know, back of a napkin, getting the first few customers. But as soon as it becomes an operational business, I lose interest. I really love that very early stage and then built an incubator, invested in several startups, moved to Cape Town, did the same thing again, started angel investing, very small tickets, but it was about helping other founders and entrepreneurs because founders wasn't a word then that we were all entrepreneurs and it wasn't all that sexy. now then I don't know when it changed from entrepreneur to founder, but now we're all founders.
or they're all founders and that's quite a cool and sexy thing. But back then you were obviously unemployable. But it was building and selling a couple of businesses and then angel investing and then becoming a VC.
Harrison Faull (21:07.899)
Okay, okay. If I, when you were making these early angel investments, do any stick out as complete utter disasters that you would never have ever touched? All of them, they must have been some nice winners.
Dan (21:17.597)
All of them. Wow. Listen, think the, my key learning from early, early, early, early investing. we're talking now, early 2000s, mid 2000s doing like 10, 20, 50 K checks.
is it's just a crap shoot. The only way to make money angel investing is to build a big portfolio. It's just, mean, it's, you know, this is obvious stuff, right? But you can't do two, three, four, five, six investments and expect, you're not, you're probably not going to get a winner. And most of my early investments end up being bought very, very quickly by
They were either aqua hired or absorbed into mid -tier large, which happens to a lot of people. The founder journey is so tough, I don't need to tell founders that, that when you get offered, whatever, a few million quid after three, four, five, six years of trying to build this thing and getting it off the ground, it's a really, really attractive offer. And nearly all of my, mean, it's obviously a bunch fell flat on their face, but those that did well were bought by...
corporate ex after five, six years. Not that I saw much return. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about he's lost a lot of money. I've made a bit of money here and there. He's lost, I mean, he's lost a shit ton of cash as an angel.
And I think he was doing it wrong. He was doing few deals, quite big tickets, but a few deals. And we were comparing notes and I said, look, I would have made more money had I just gone in fixed income or just, you know, just done an index tracker or stayed in property, I would have made more money. But that's not the point. I think my favorite phrase, which I think is a Daniel Priestley phrase is,
Dan (23:01.917)
Startups may die, but founders never do. it's just about giving it a go. It probably won't work. 9.5 won't work, but give it a go because these founders will learn their craft. They'll move on. They'll build business. And it's all about this innovation piece and trying something new. And I'm very comfortable.
I'm very comfortable being part of that pie. And also, this is a stupid thing to say as a VC, but I'm not motivated by money. I'm motivated by change and innovation. So, which is not the right attitude to have as a VC, just to put it out there. But if you're in the early stages, get amongst it, try, do, innovate. This is what it's all about.
Harrison Faull (23:49.535)
Well, you stayed very true to the most risky stage of angel investing, of being a VC, which is the pre -seed seed stage where there is basically nothing to go on other than making a judgment on the person and maybe the idea at the time. But you're also expecting them to pivot at some point because everyone does. So let's jump into the founding of Super Seed, which is now a behemoth in London, a 50 million pound fund.
investing in AI and automation at the pre -seed and seed stage. How did it start? Did it start as a fund? How did you grow into what you are today?
Dan (24:32.241)
So I met my partner about 2017, Mads Jensen. He's the complete opposite to me. I want to burn things and put my pants on my head and run around the room and break things. And he is a polymath, logical, structural, financial head. So we're very different, but we both have very similar values, goals, viewpoints on the world.
So our essence is the same, but there's so much.
And that's what I think makes a great relationship is that you're the same but different. You bring different pieces to the pie. You're greater than the sum of the parts, I think is the cheesy phrase. And he and I are that in space. We fight like cat and dog sometimes because we just see the world so differently in so many ways, but this commonality of values and drive, and we want to make business smarter. We want to create efficiency and productivity in business. I love messing with big business. mean, that's part of my...
kind of more twisted side is how can I mess with the corporates? can I eat their lunch?
And they want their lunch to be eaten by the way. They want to become more efficient and productive. This isn't a one way street, but it's so we have, we're different, but the same, we met in 17 and we started investing our own money. And then we, put like five, five million bucks aside to, to be invested in 12 companies just to test the model. Then in that was in, that was 20, we got regulated and did that in a fund structure. We call that fund one. It wasn't really, it's like a prototype demo fund, but it was there where we kind of learned the craft because we were both ex founders.
Dan (26:08.188)
with a little bit of angeling, but we'd not built a fund before. And I okay, there's something in this and the model is very simple. Invest in...
B2B software founders, so business software founders who are solving difficult problems that are going to make the world more efficient and more productive. And Europe has a massive efficiency and productivity problem. If you look at the States, the numbers have dropped a lot. if of the trajectory of productivity before 2008 and after 2008 in the States is about 20 % off trend and Europe's about 40 % off trend. So you've got this massive productivity issue. Europe has a whole world of other issues, but productivity is the driving force here. And if we don't get productivity up,
We don't have any of the nice things in society. We have no welfare. We have no health care. We have none of the good stuff that we want as a society. So Matt and I are very conscious of this and we want to at the business level do our bit to get innovation rolling through and put Europe on the map ideally. So 17 May, by 19 we're investing, by 20 we've kind of got our first fund off the track.
Super Seed Fund One.
And then in 22, we went off and raised, we closed in, I think it was March 22, we raised our 50 million on the same strategy. So very technical founders solving very difficult business problems and creating productivity, mainly for large business, but it doesn't have to be, has to be something that's just gonna, just gonna move the needle. It's not been easy. Fundraising is extremely hard. Sourcing, selecting, supporting is extremely hard. still in many ways a startup investing in startups.
Dan (27:50.637)
But you know I feel very passionately about
what we're doing, we've built a team of 10, half on the investment side, half on the platform side, so we can really support founding teams in commercializing and thinking about customers and going to market. it's, given my time again, I wouldn't become a VC, because VC doesn't serve anybody, it almost serves nobody. But that said, it's a very interesting vehicle, it's massively fascinating to be a part of, and I get to work with some of the smart
people on the planet and that is just a gift.
Harrison Faull (28:28.382)
Awesome. Wow. Thank you. I'd love to unpick the platform side. So you've dedicated half your headcount to a tool that your portfolio companies can take advantage of. And if we come back, so this is pre -seed and seed stage. What kind of things can founders access that you see your portfolio companies loving that are now on the platform?
Dan (28:46.109)
It's not a platform as in software. It's applied VC. It's applied venture capital. It's platform venture capital. So the two things that we focus on are sales and hiring. The two things that founders fuck up consistently is hiring the right people and going to market. It's they're really hard things to do. And when you're a founder spinning 20 plates.
getting everything right all of the time is really hard. They're really smart people that we're investing in. They get this stuff very quickly. All we are is a little helping hand when required, a little accelerant when required, and the two main spaces are hiring. So we have two heads of talent and then a team doing that. And then we have all of us really, even on the investment side, and then sales, go to market, marketing, advertising, and then lots of fractional support, lots of non -exec support. And how do we put our talent pools into your business?
for periods of time to do certain functional roles and get the needles moving and get the revenues up and to the right and get the right people on the rocket ship. So that's what I mean by platform. It's this applied venture capital model when it's the right time and the right place for the founding team is just to slot in the right function or the right person or the right toolkit so that they can just accelerate their journey onto series A and beyond because it's the riskiest bit. It's the highest returns but also the
highest risk is seed.
Harrison Faull (30:12.579)
That sounds like a really good value add feature. For example, you're going in B2B startups, quite deep tech founders. They might be more scientific than a marketer or a salesperson and maybe might not have hired anyone before. And hiring someone for a startup is so critical that first hire. If you've never hired anyone before, having the chief of talent come in and sit with you or design a hiring plan and actually educate you from zero to hero on how to be a good hire would be instrumental.
Dan (30:40.165)
Yeah. And just think the highest performing people in any arena in the world have support networks. So whether you're, you know, the highest performing tennis player or golfer or business person or whatever you're doing, the smartest highest performing people have advisors, mentors, coaches, people that, cause I mean, Elon Musk isn't building all of these wonderful platforms on his own.
If you scratch the surface, there are incredibly smart people running those businesses and then he can go off and talk about stupid stuff and spend time on Twitter spouting off nonsense. everybody has very, very smart, the smartest people have smarter people around them. That's all I'll say. And not that I'm saying I'm the smarter person. I'm not, but I'm saying we connect those dots.
Harrison Faull (31:37.38)
But it's also a hell of strategic advantage for a founder to be able to bring in more impressive support teams and actually share the vision, excite them, get someone willing to step down from a comfy corporate job on a big salary into a much riskier equity -based compensation package, which probably didn't align with their life goals and savings the day before they met the founder. So hiring is very important.
Is there an example of SuperSeed tangibly changing a go -to -market strategy for the better with one of your portfolio companies, something that you influenced?
Dan (32:16.861)
Yeah, I think there are a number of examples. So I think it's worth just sharing two things to start with. There's the marginal gains piece. A lot of startup activity is marginal gains. And it's almost like having lots and lots of little things that end up when you look back on them as one big thing, they're not. There's a 10 o 'clock WhatsApp message on a Sunday night which just changes the mindset.
And it's about giving giving founders access to these support tendrils to do these marginal gains, which then look like, my God, you did a tweak or a pivot, or you did things like that. That was a lot of conversation and a lot of time. So there's, there's, there's these big strategic shifts, which do happen, but they tend to come or pre -baked with a whole world of other conversations that have gone on along the way. But to give you some outcomes, if we look at, for example, think tracks, one of our.
portfolio companies. They help large...
manufacturing plants and factory floors maintain existing or legacy equipment for longer. They make old dumb plant manufacturing equipment smart with sensors and software and reporting dashboards and monitoring equipment for the management team. And it was built by two ex Microsoft engineers and neither wanted to be CEO. They were both incredibly smart, technical people, but we hired a CEO, Paul Reed,
became he became he started off on the sales function then became CEO and he's built the company from like early days three years ago ten grand a month kind of revenues where they're kind of not quite sure of the go -to -market motion and now they're a multi -million pound revenue company and off past series A and beyond and doing really well
Dan (34:06.573)
Another another example for you is a company called AI builds and they do they build the software for robotic arms that do large -scale 3d printing for manufacturing and they work with Automotive they work with all of the big Formula One teams Aerospace and they build big, you know 3d printing used to be iPhone cases and hearing aids or whatever They do the big the big structures 3d printer structures for rapid prototyping and manufacturing for large orgs and they were focused on architectural
structures because that's where they came from a couple of architects Michael and Dehaan who built the business so they were looking at construction architecture to create efficiencies in that industry and when we did our go -to -market
Testing and you know where where is the opportunity here and started selling the product with them it turned out that it was automotive and aerospace so I don't know how you define tweak over over pivot or You everyone has different definitions of these terms But they're just some examples of conversation constant conversations with founders constant marginal gains constant testing of markets go This isn't the thing. This is the thing
So often it's not changing what you sell necessarily, but it's changing the ICP or the customer profile. So I don't know that, if that answers your question, but that's, that's how we think and work is very smart people doing very clever stuff. But sometimes there's a, isn't working. How are we, how are we going to shift this? well, let's just tweak the position and the messaging and the client base and the territory or the, how we're thinking about the go -to -market piece. And that's where you, find your way through the magic.
Harrison Faull (35:44.582)
I think we're all getting a flavor of how SuperSeed works, how you add value to your portfolio companies. And by being a constant voice in a founder's ear, a friendly, helpful one, providing best practices, getting them to ask the right questions so that ultimately they navigate themselves to a successful outcome is...
Dan (36:04.773)
All I'll say is I want to say one thing to be very, I mean, a lot, get a lot of questions that I don't know how to answer as a VC. And even with founder operator experience, I don't know how to answer.
And also a lot of my experience is out of date. I mean, some of the stuff that I know is from five, 10, 20s again, the world has shifted, right? But a lot of VCs are asked questions. They don't know how to answer, but they still answer them. Less than 10 % in Europe have even worked in a, in a startup. So to any founders listening in or watching, just be really careful who you ask questions of and be the best filter in the world as to what you do with those answers. Generally speaking, if you hear the same thing more than
once in different guises. There's normally something in it, but just really, really filter down because I know, and I've been on board calls where I've heard founders ask investors questions and they've got, well, I think you should be doing that. And that's just really shit advice. That's really not the way to solve this problem. So just, just be very conscious of who you ask. And just because we hold the money in the purse strings doesn't mean we have the answers.
Harrison Faull (37:12.991)
I think that's why there are definitely stories of people not being very happy with the board advice they've been given because these people aren't necessarily in the weeds as much as founders day to day and might not have the knowledge to guide.
Dan (37:24.989)
had one yesterday, I was on a board call yesterday and I was a bit rude because I find it hard to hold my tongue and one of the other
board members was talking about a go -to -market strategy and this is company that is burning and running out of cash and they're not making the headway that they should be making and that they can make. And he was talking about going to market using content. said, content's great, but that's not going to answer the fucking today question. We need jam and the sandwich today. Where's the low -hanging fruit to really understand customer one, ICP one, what's the thing now? That is not building relationships on LinkedIn. That is not some kind of...
thought leadership content strategy. That's after the fact. Please, can we focus on...
customer one, problem one, feature one, thing one. And I lost my rag a little bit because it's just some of this stuff is like they've read a LinkedIn article somewhere. like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. You've really got to get the, get the right advice into the right hands at the right time. Not that I always get it right, but there are some things that are objectively wrong, not subjective, but objectively wrong. And that was one of them is like, Jesus, man, just get the first sale. The clients will tell you, they might not tell you the truth, but you'll know the truth. You'll see through them. So get the clients on the table.
Harrison Faull (38:40.824)
No, that's great advice. Stay laser focused on the things that will move the dial. Try not to get too distracted by things that won't. Even if they're more comfortable, because maybe it wouldn't require some self -reflection and some admittance and failure, which you have to have a lot of self -awareness to actually do as a founder and then remove your pride from the reality of the situation. So you're dealing with pre -seed and seed the whole time. What kind of things stand out to you?
is traction because it's a non -obvious factor at that stage. It's not necessarily revenue. What kind of things do you like seeing in a deck that make an opportunity exciting?
Dan (39:23.453)
It's really hard to answer this question that the... see between 10 and 20 pitch decks a day. The first thing I'll say to founders is don't spray and pray.
There's a lot, would say half the decks that I see are consumer or not relevant to me. So just don't do that. Don't waste your time. Don't think that downloading some investor database and then, and then pummeling it with some kind of AI tool is going to bear you any fruit.
So the first thing that I look for in an email or if it's cold, I'm assuming this is cold, right? So let's just talk about colds, because the warm referral is where you must start. You must always try and get the introductions as nasty and as cheeseball as that is. You must always try and find a referral in if you can, because it's probably going to bear more conversational fruit. But if you're cold, just be thoughtful. Tell the investor why you want them on your cap table. Where?
you think you fit in their portfolio and why and why there's a match because if it's a thoughtful intro I will always respond to any thoughtful introduction cold email or I mean I'm not very good on LinkedIn mail because LinkedIn mails are just a horrific thing but
A phone call, no one picks up the phone these days, but if it's a phone call or a message or an email, if it's thoughtful, I will always respond, even if it's off topic. So I think it's really important to keep that circularity. So first thing is, the, find the people that you want on the cap table, work that list backwards. So the ones that you kind of want the least or you're not sure of, you know, make those calls and.
Dan (41:03.055)
Send those mails first and obviously trying to find the intros. So that's number one, be thoughtful. Where do I fit? This is why we exist. This is why we fit with you. This is why we wanna work with you and then you can explain what the thing is. On the actual pitch deck, if you cover all of the staples in a really thoughtful way, I don't think it massively matters. Just know.
that you have about three to four seconds per slide. Just know that we will be looking for the implicit message as well as the explicit. So we eat with our eyes. It can't be a dog's dinner. It's got to be thought through. One core message per slide. How does that narrative flow? But I will pick up a deck and I'll go one, two, three, and I'm looking for the hooks. I'm looking for the magic. I want to know about you and the market. They're the two main things. Who the hell are you?
Why do you get out of bed and who are you serving and why do they care? And why will they care when you sell to them? They're the two kind of core lenses. It's like you and market, team and market, team and market.
And then I'll be going one, two, and I'll punch through the materials like, is there something in this where there's a reason for another conversation? Cause you're only imperative with any email or phone call or pitch deck or teaser deck or whatever it is, is to get the next meeting. You don't want to overload it with content or try and be too clever. Cause founders tend to know their business too well and try and want to tell everything on all the slides. Like I'm amazing. This is amazing.
opportunity you should invest and they word vomit everywhere you don't need to do that it needs a less is more do let do do do less for fewer I think is probably a massive startup mantra just do less for fewer and when you're dealing with investors once you've done the intro piece and you've positioned why them and why you then keep the decks extremely elegantly simple and you almost want it to be
Dan (43:05.999)
not teaserish to the point where I don't know what the hell you do. I sometimes I got an email yesterday from a guy.
And I kept reading it and I kept reading it and I still didn't know what the thing was. So he'd give me the, I'm amazing, we've got this team of amazing and the market is huge. then I was like, I don't know what the fuck you do, dude. I mean, what is the thing? Tell me what the thing is. And you can either pitch or position the things. A pitch is we do X for Y, boom, in your face. And a position is we do X for Y, boom, in your face. Unlike this lot over there that do that for that. We don't do that. We do this. We do that with this. So there's a pitch and a position.
Harrison Faull (43:24.619)
Thank
Dan (43:41.551)
pick your poison it's up to you but elegant simple why you why now
why this, however you want to cover those major food groups, just very elegantly simple. So I don't think there's any simple way to answer your question and I'm waffling a bit here, but just you've got three seconds per slide, one core message in a narrative, 10 just to get that next meeting. You only need to get the next phone call, that's it.
Harrison Faull (44:12.127)
I think that's great advice. I think the main thing founders don't want to hear is take your time over the email and be hyper customized. There's no excuses now with ChatGPT, with other AI tools. You can put someone's LinkedIn profile in and the bio of a fund and create a perfectly well customized intro that still stands out because so many people don't bother.
Dan (44:34.801)
Yeah, but you can see straight through GPT. You can see straight through Claude Grock, whatever. You can see the generic GPT LLM output.
But you're right, it should absolutely be a starting point. There is no reason on this planet to know your investors. Just create 100. Just do this for 100. And I promise you, you'll bear more fruit than spray and pray and nonsense. Do the warms, but when you're doing the cold, just build 100 and work that list backwards. Chat GPT to get the call, you're right. But just very short, concise header, bullets, what and why and when you want to speak, boom, done.
Harrison Faull (45:17.228)
I think it's probably a good time to plug OpenVC.app, which is our platform. So it's a fantastic platform for any founder looking to raise a pre -seed to Series A, 50K to 5 million, looking to get cold outreach to investors. One of the best free tools that there is, is an investor thesis match. So you upload your pitch deck, the computer works out what it is you do, and then you get a score out of a hundred about how well you fit to each fund profile.
Dan (45:19.943)
DO IT!
Harrison Faull (45:45.024)
which helps you as a founder avoid applying to people that are never going to respond to you because they have absolutely no interest in what you do in the space you're in.
Dan (45:53.681)
love that you exist. We need more tools like you. I can't wait for the day when I'm out of a job because it's been automated away. I think there will always be a human in the loop, but we so need more tools like you. We need the connective tissue. There is no reason why.
A funding round should take six months or even three months. It is ridiculous. It's you've got your day job as a founder and then you've got this other job of fundraising and it is is such a killer and is such a waste of time and resources and I want to see so many more tools. I'm not trying to do you at the job. I want to see so many more tools like open VC democratizing this connective tissue because it's just nonsense.
Harrison Faull (46:41.301)
I agree. Thank you, thank you for supporting the plug. When it comes to Europe versus America versus the rest of the world and being efficient at work, I've heard you mention in the past that you think there should be a European NASDAQ. And what I'm trying to get at is the mentality difference between Europeans and maybe Americans who are more willing to take risks and more embracive of new technologies versus Europe, which is becoming quite bureaucratic.
Why do you think having a European NASDAQ would be beneficial? And what would you like to see change in terms of people's personalities in Europe that would actually help society at large?
Dan (47:24.253)
So I'm hearing two kind of two separate camps of question or two thoughts strands in that. One is the European attitude and the other is the infrastructure needed to support European venture. Is that fair? So on the attitude piece, money talks.
Harrison Faull (47:38.891)
Okay. Yep, yep, absolutely.
Dan (47:45.765)
So the only way to change the European attitude to investing to technology and AI has been a massive proponent in this massive accelerant in this conversation, which is great because AI is at the dinner table. It's on the breakfast news. It's in your face and people are using it every day. So it's thank goodness for it. Four of its downsides and potential problems is a it's created this conversation about investing technology AI. So on the
on the attitude side, on the European attitude side, the only way to make changes is through people's wallets. The only way to create an attitudinal shift is for the tax regime, for the regulators, for governments to enable a more fluid investing attitude. So SEIS and EIS are great examples of high net worths rather than give the government whatever
it is for SEIS 50p in the pound, they can invest that in the next wave of innovation. you at early stage, and there are various versions of this across Europe, it's not...
blanket across Europe, but there are various versions of this across Europe. There is nothing at growth. So there is nothing beyond A, there's a void. And then there is nowhere to list. So companies either have to go to America to list or they end up selling to American corporates. So we need on the attitudinal side, we need the wallet and purse strings loosened by governments and regulations to create more
more ease of transaction in investing in startups, in investing in technology in the next wave and beyond the low early early stages. There needs to be structures at institution level for pension funds, for ultra high net worths and family offices to make it so much more attractive to invest all the way through the ranks. And then we need a European, some form of agreed template or
Dan (49:54.663)
some form of European Nasdaq or some form of listings I don't care where it is Berlin, Paris, Amsterdam, London I mean there's four times more capital going through London actually it's not less than that than now but I know that it's more than double the capital rolling through London than any other European city so probably London makes the most sense but it doesn't matter let's get somewhere attractive that can get
all of the investing capital that's going into fixed income or into property or into other assets or more than likely going over to the states, keep that here. And the only way to do that attitudinally is to create the right incentives, the right financial incentives to create that vertical stack of investment activity. And that needs some bold decisions at the EU level. And then obviously the UK and Norway
non -EU European countries will follow suit or tack into that. And I think I've probably covered in that on the infrastructural side. the attitudinal shift just needs to be financially driven. On the infrastructure side, it needs governments to pull their finger out. I saw the, I think it was head of trade at the EU, is it Mario? I can't remember his surname.
he was talking about the problems we have and this productivity decline and how we we're going to have to make some really hard decisions about welfare, defense, other societal requirements because we just don't have the income. We don't have the investment appetite and technology is such a massive player. So I think that the eyes have been opened. The infrastructure conversations are happening, but it's just going to be a slow moving behemoth. I'd like to see
startup passports, European cross border startup passports, investor passports, investor infrastructure passports, you like, this is the wrong naming convention, but I want to be able to invest in a company in Germany or Switzerland or Italy. And I want those, I don't want to be dealing with Belgian or German notaries for 10 years. So there needs to be this kind of
Dan (52:02.011)
regulatory allowance and these kind of almost passporting to create this startup ecosystem across Europe because software is global, right? Startups are global. They're not, I mean, even the startups I invested in London, some of the teams in Bangladesh, some's in Ukraine, some's in the States. mean, it's nonsense to think that these things aren't happening behind the scenes, but we need the investment structure and the legal structures to now coincide with that, with that global mindset or at least the European mindset.
Harrison Faull (52:31.325)
think you're bang on. When I first heard the idea of a European NASDAQ, I thought, why on earth do we have something like that? Why aren't we celebrating our successes and creating an awesome place for founders to exit and list publicly? Because in the news, over recent years at least, you've heard listing on London has actually been a disaster, especially for tech firms when you look at the US comparisons and the multiples that they get there, which is why everyone's being acquired by American private equity now. And that's a second exit strategy.
But it's quite a disincentive for a founder that goes and spends their whole lifetime to then realize that actually the best place to exit is in America or privately being merged, being merged required to a larger entity. So I think you're bang on with that. And the special treatment of startups should definitely happen. I think it's crazy that we're the only European country that has tax offsetting for startup investments. think Germany have just started something similar, but it's not as generous.
Dan (53:25.469)
They've just started, yeah.
Harrison Faull (53:29.074)
So maybe that's the beginning of something.
Dan (53:31.121)
Well, we need a sovereign wealth fund. mean, the British Business Bank is doing an amazing job, but they're so hamstrung and they get such bad, they get such unnecessary bad press because they're so hamstrung. And yeah, if they handle like, you the, the, all the COVID management and future fund, there have been some challenges, which there will always be, but we need to just support and, and
have a more positive conversation around investing because it's almost perceived that the British Business Bank have been given all this money. They're wasting taxpayers money. They're making money. If we don't get more money into tech and into innovation, we're screwed. It's game over. The UK is already falling behind. And the irony here is that we have all of the talent. Half of the top universities in the world are in Europe.
The UK is absolutely on point with all of the leading innovation in AI and front edge technologies. And all that's happening is that they're being absorbed into American corporates or they're heading over to the States or they're not starting up at all because the infrastructure just isn't there to support them. So the talent is here. The talent is across Europe.
Dan (54:44.493)
We just need the vehicles to create, to then invest and then follow that throughput through. And I think the answer is a sovereign wealth fund and much more support from government across the board from building on the SEIS -EIS baseline and then really supporting the growth pieces and then really getting into some form of how are we going to create European listing or London listing.
Harrison Faull (55:09.383)
Well, yeah, I hope people are listening and gonna make some necessary changes. I know we're running out of time and I've just reviewed the questions. And one thing I really did wanna get your insights on is the bad days of being a VC. Because founders have so many bad days for every good day. And they're looking up at this God -like entity that can give them capital and give them advice. But.
Dan (55:30.237)
It's not my money. Don't worry. It's not mine.
Harrison Faull (55:37.563)
I think it's quite interesting to understand what isn't necessarily a great day as a VC and you touched on one of the activities that you hate doing that you have to do as professional which is sometimes pulling a term sheet.
Harrison Faull (55:56.411)
What kind of things might make an investor pull a term sheet when you don't want to?
Dan (56:02.775)
Listen, it's the energetic connection between founder and investor because money gets in the way. So founders never tell me the truth because I hold the purse strings and I get that. I mean some do but most don't. They want to give me the glossy version. I understand but don't think for one second I can't see through the bullshit because I do. I spend much more of my time on that side of the desk than this side of the desk.
there are a number of things that are very difficult in VC fundraising. We have to fundraise like founders have to fundraise working out how to build a deal, how to, how to create a deal structure that is my, my main viewpoint is I don't care about this funding round. I care about creating the right structure for the next funding round. How do we create success for the business in the next funding round and beyond? So that's.
always my contextual lens to putting putting a deal on the table or agreeing a structure around a deal. Pulling term sheets specifically as I've only done once. Have I only done it once? Yeah we've gotten close to terms and I've had to do it but the actual the actual and I didn't pull it I changed it and I changed it and it
And it was because the commercial feedback hadn't been as strong. it pre terms, I'd said, assuming we get this kind of feedback from these clients in this way, then we'll do a deal. So it wasn't like a, it wasn't like a bare face naked, fuck you, I'm going to pull a term sheet. was a, it was a thought through process, but it still turns my stomach.
just to think about it because I feel things that I probably shouldn't feel as a VC because VC is a brutal thing. It's speed of sale, speed of scale. And you are either building something that is venture scale and
Dan (57:59.741)
or you're not. I've got 30 companies, only two are going to make it and the other 28 aren't and that's fine. That's the brutality of it. But in each of those businesses are human beings that I care about deeply. And when you're working really closely with people, pre -deal and post -deal, and it's never ending, it's hard. And so I take those things very personally and I get things wrong. I say the wrong things often. I don't often do the wrong thing.
I will correct it but pulling the term sheet or changing the term sheet was was painful. The company has gone on to then we work together they've gone on to subsequently raise and they're doing very well but it soured the relationship quite a lot and still there's still the remnants of that sour in the relationship it's hard it's hard.
Harrison Faull (58:52.437)
Okay, so I understand that there are times, so that was new information that was uncovered through market research. Has there ever been a time where you've uncovered maybe fraud or something that just was absolutely irrecoverable from?
Dan (59:04.517)
I don't have any juicy stories. I'm so sorry. don't have any juicy stories. There's been no fraud. There's been, I had one meeting with a guy, very early meeting with a guy and I had to walk out of the meeting cause he was so full of shit and founders need to have bluff, guff, ego, bravado. I'm going to, I get that and I love that. And I love the sales pattern. That's awesome. But there's a fine line between believing your own bullshit and just being full of shit. And it got to the point where I was itching in the meeting and my
Dan (59:34.523)
I was in there with my partner and another guy from the team. I had to make an excuse and leave because I just couldn't listen to any more of the bullshit anymore. He went on to raise from a very well known investor, American investor that is globally known and then got fired from his own business within six months. And I won't name any names. That's not fair. But I think that's the only that's the only near answer to your question that I can I can think of right now is that I cannot be in the same room with you. I have to leave.
Harrison Faull (01:00:06.007)
I love it. So much passion has come through on this podcast. Super Seed, Dan Bowyer, I'll leave all the relevant links in the description, your LinkedIn handle, how people can apply. Is there anything you'd like to sign off with as a message to founders that are thinking of applying?
Dan (01:00:23.921)
Founders are my heroes. That's it.
Harrison Faull (01:00:27.957)
No, very clean. Thanks Dan. Really appreciate your time.
Dan (01:00:31.879)
Cheers, guys.
